Thagrosh the Prophet, Part 2: To Tier, or Not To Tier

In the previous post, I discussed my opening thoughts with regards to my newest, bestest attrition buddy, Thagrosh the Prophet of Everblight. 

As with all casters, there's at least one theme list out there you can potentially use.  At this time, the only one I can think of is in the Forces book, and someone's been nice enough to post it out in picture form.  Without further ado, I'll dig into what our list looks like if we theme it.

Tier 1: Whoopity crap.  FA:U on the Blighted Ogrun units (which tend to be FA:2-3 already) and FA:2 for Spawning Vessels.  Most Legion folks own one spawning vessel, tops.  On the bright side, excess corpse tokens don't get 'wasted'.  On the down side, you're bringing expensive bodies, and not too many of 'em.

Tier 2: We have 2+ Blighted Ogrun units.  At this time, we've spent 10-16 points to get 6-10 bodies.  We could double up on Warmongers OR Warspears, but in all honesty I would expect most people to have one unit of either instead of two units of one.

That being said, I would suggest leading with Warspears, because Set Defense can be fun for taking the charge, and we'll be at effective DEF14, ARM18 if we can make use of Death Shroud.

Warmongers OR Warspears can use the +2STR buff.  Alternatively, Tenacity Spam can make the front line of Warspears a stupid-nasty DEF15 against charges/shooting (provided we have Fog of War up against things that don't ignore concealment).

Con: Warspears want you to drop Fog of War upon their charge turn IF they need to peg targets that are in Thagrosh' control area.

Pro: free 3pt solo.  Yeah, you want at least one War Chief in there for the accuracy buff.  Using him to buff everyone might be tough, but at least you can get healing.  Even better: this healing does NOT remove the enemy from play, so the spawning vessel you might bring can still help.

Tier 3: Bring a spawning vessel.  We're at effective 19 points by now, though we still haven't taken beasts or fury support.  Your lessers get advance deploy...but the point of taking a Spawning Vessel is to save on lessers...um.  Yeah.  About that...

Tier 4: Bring 2+ heavies, get +2" on your DZ.  This is pretty solid, considering you're kinda slow as-is.  Get all your stuff up-field faster.  If you're playing 35pts, you have a solid 16+5pts to play with.

What's Your t4 List Look Like?
Assuming 35 points, I would grab a Carnivean (because, hey, spiny growth) and an Angel (we want another heavy; it can crack armor and fly over our glut of medium bases).  I'd love a Shredder for tenacity, but I'm just not sure we've got the points.

pThags [-5]
-Carnivean [11]
-Angelius [9]
-Shredder [2]
5 Warspears [8]
5 Warmongers [8]
Min Spawning Vessel Crew [2]
Warmonger Chief [0]
Total: 35

That gets us to a full T4 list, and runs us a grand total of 34 points.  At 35, I'd be sorely tempted to drop a couple grunts off the Spawning Vessel crew to get me a Shredder.  Lead off with the Warspears, add Fog of War, and throw out tenacity and/or spiny growth on them.  Make the enemy deal with high DEF (up to 15, assuming they want to charge, or if they don't ignore concealment).  Warmongers in the back as follow-up.

At 50?  Add another heavy, max the spawning vessel.  You have 5 points remaining, assuming a 9pt heavy (Angel or Scythean).  Consider a War Chief and Lesser, or Forsaken and lesser, and find a point somewhere?

Overall
The requirements for the tier are KIND of nice with pThags.  He wants to abuse multi-wounders and high ARM, and Blighted Ogrun are where you'll get that in-faction.

Pros
-Warspears with Tenacity, Fog Of War/Set Defense, and Death Shroud are a DEF15/ARM17 front line vs shooting, and DEF15/ARM19 front line if you can get Death Shroud to go off.  Not the easiest thing to crack.  If the enemy brings lots of infantry, you'll have fun with Berserk and the stew pot.

+2" on the DZ is a nice way to compensate for slower models.

Cons
-Not a lot of bodies; this makes the Stew Pot a little less efficient.
-Tier Benefits of T1 and T3 are a bit 'eh', all things considered.
-You're burning a minimum of 13 points (more like 19) on infantry, and you still need a pair of heavies.  Unless you compromise somewhere, this build is only going to mature at 50.
-You have to own two units of Blighted Ogrun?
-Honestly, Gatormen derive more benefit from Fog of War and Death Shroud; only inferior to Warspears in that they lack Set Defense but can get +1DEF or Pathfinder; are you willing to trade +1DEF only vs charges for Unyielding and more accuracy/attacks in melee?

Summary
I wouldn't really try this list under 50 points, since the core requirements are a bit steep with regards to the amount of Blighted Ogrun.  If you want to try out a Legion 'brick', this is probably as good as it gets.  At 35, I'd  lean towards a front line of Gatormen with Fog of War and/or Tenacity as a cheap and nasty front line/anti-infantry core.

The tier isn't necessarily terrible, but I feel you need to play it at 50 points to get the most out of pThag's attrition ways, and you really need Warspears as the front line.

First Impressions: Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight

I'm back (again) after a bit of a break, this one due to real life, and the fact that I FINALLY have a functioning laptop again. (loaned one out, it came back in less-than-stellar condition, and the other one suffered a hard drive meltdown).

On a whim, I put in a couple games with pThagrosh, and honestly?  I like what I saw.  On paper at first, I was kind of like 'eh, what's this guy actually do?'  I didn't see an amazing knockout punch, but the feat looked hilarious.

Then again, there's a reason for this: I'm more used to thinking about Legion as assassination.  pThagrosh can certainly pull that off, BUT, but: pThags is solid at attrition.

Base Stats
His stats are fairly tank-ish: SPD5 is kinda slow, but he's got some workable defensive stats and damage output. 

Defensively, DEF14 is so-so until you figure out you can gain Concealment at will, and you probably have Tenacity, so you can pull off DEF17 vs shooting.  You have ARM16 base, and with Death Shroud and Spiny Growth, you can be an effective ARM20 vs melee.  Throw that on top of 18 boxes and you have some nasty defensive stats for a warlock.  Just bear in mind you've got to spend some Fury to get there.

The other neat defensive thing: Death Shroud.  If the enemy is in his CMD9 range, they're at -2STR.  Go ahead, melee me.  This can be a huge asset against melee armies, and you'll want to bring ARM and wounds to take advantage of this.

Offensively, you have a decent POW12 spray; it's workable enough for infantry clearning.  Note that it's a fire type spray, so immunities come into play.  In melee, you have a PS12 backhand, and a PS16 reach whompin' stick that turns dead infantry into burning clouds.  This is nice if you get close, and he CAN clear out some infantry.

Spells
The first spell you'll notice is Fog of War.  Concealment for your 14" control area is nice, especially if you've got Legion shooting that doesn't CARE about concealment, like anything with Eyeless Sight, Hunter, or sprays.  You'll probably throw this up first turn, and keep it up as long as there's a shooting threat.

Bad Blood is situational; it's useless against Warmachine and HILARIOUS against Hordes.  I'd almost thing about a bloody Spell Martyr just to get it on an opposing heavy early.  It does several things:

1) You leach?  You take damage.  Free early-game damage and a 'screw you' unless they've got fury management, and they'll have to dedicate that management to that heavy.

2) No healing.
Seriously, this is one of the major perks.  Bad Blood an enemy heavy, then cripple it.  One of the things Warmachine players hate about Hordes is our ability to spend 1-2 fury and bring a mostly-dead heavy back up to full operational capability.  Not so much with this.  Note it shuts down Regenerate AND all forms of healing, too.  The fewer heavies the other guy has, the more they'll hate this.

3) No Transfers
Just a nice, last 'up yours' from this spell.

Draconic Blessing is a pretty nice little +2STR for model/unit spell, but note it must be Faction models.  Ah well.

Mutagenesis is an interesting spell.  It's a RNG8 POW12 shot, but if you kill an enemy model, you RFP it.  If Thagrosh was the point of origin, you can place him in the spot where the enemy was, and then you can't move.  Some people will doubltess look to this as an assassination threat, but that's a bit of a trap.  You're looking at burning 3-4 fury to get there, and then you've got 3-4 tops to beat the target down.  It's doable, but be very careful about using it for that.  Bear in mind you can move before you fire the spell, so you CAN potentially use it to Get Outta Dodge.

And, since no one should be without a big magical shot, you get Obliteration.  Yay.  It's kind of a trap; you'll probably have better things to do with your fury, not gonna lie.  Don't forget you have it, though.

Extra Fury Management Tools
You've got two other neat special rules with pThags: Athanc and Attuned Spirit: Legion.

Athanc lets you pick up an additional point of Fury if you're one under.  This is nice if you have to transfer, or in the late game if you're low on fury generation, or if you miscalculate the amount of fury you need.

Attuned Spirit lets you drop an animus for free as a spell.  This is great for things like Spiny Growth, or any of the other 2-fury animi.  Mostly, though, it's nice for Spiny Growth, because Spiny Growth + Death Shroud = Hilarious.

The Feat: Dark Revival
Bring a beast back to play, fully healed, and it forfeits the action.

Or, Let's Trade Heavies, But I Get Mine Back.  See an attrition trend here?  Beware of enemies that have RFP abilities, because you don't want that to come into play here.

Army Composition
Fog of War dictates that if you're going to bring shooting, bring shooting that ignores Concealment, OR drop FoW when it can help the other guy.  In terms of infantry, Striders and Hex Hunters with their respective UAs gain Hunter.  Additionally, I would look into a Shredder for the DEF buff; even a DEF11 heavy can start to get difficult to shoot if you add Concealment and +1DEF from Tenacity to it. 

Death Shroud makes Spiny Growth attractive, and I'd be hard-pressed to NOT include a Carnivean with pThags.  With this, you can get your heavies up to an effective ARM22, and every time an enemy heavy tags 'em they eat d3 damage.  Even Khador heavies struggle with this, and it puts you in a good position to screw the enemy up.

Battlegroup
As mentioned above, think long and hard about a Carnivean and Shredder.  DEF/ARM buffs are nice with Fog of War and Death Shroud. 

An Angelius can get up to DEF:Stupid (or 17) with Tenacity and Concealment, and ignores the debuff from shooting.

Typhon likes the DEF/ARM buffs, as DEF15 vs ranged is pretty solid, and ARM19/effective 21 with Spiny Growth + Death Shroud.  You can also get lovely PS19 smacks with Dragon's Blood, and his own animus/affinity with Thagrosh let him play a nasty attrition game, too.

Scytheans can struggle with heavy armor, but Dragon's Blood going up to PS19 (and Spiny Growth) can make this guy a workable way to start off the piece trade; you then get him back via feat.

Proteus is another option; he can start the piece trade and you can use Spiny Growth/Dragon's Blood to help with his durability and hitting power issues.  Honestly, I think Proteus might work well with this guy, but it's worth more testing.

Infantry
Consider multi-wound infantry with pThags just to abuse the Death Shroud.

I want to like Blighted Ogrun with pThags and it feels fluffy.  Warmongers love being PS16.  Warspears love the DEF buff, and +2STR helps their melee AND ranged attacks; just remember to turn off Fog of War on the assault.

However, I think the Gatorman Posse wins out here.  Death Shroud helps them; they're effective ARM20 when engaged with that.  With Fog of War and potentially Tenacity Spam, they're DEF16 against ranged.  They miss out on +2STR, but come on.  You have heavies for that.

You could make Hex Hunters and/or Striders work, and you could always cheap out with Legionnaires or Grotesques + Spawning Vessel, but I kinda like the Posse for the few more points.

Solos
As ever, consider Fury Management Solos.  Forsaken help with fury management and can of course fight off high-DEF infantry and camping casters.  Additionally, if the enemy runs beasts hot to try to crack your armor, 8+3-4d6 can do a number on them.

Shepherds are nice for more healing and of course fury management.

Spell Martyers are by no means auto-include; BUT against Hordes an early Bad Blood can be great fun.  Otherwise, hell, just fire off an early Obliteration or something.

Fog of War makes Deathstalkers and Annyssa kind of iffy, as it harms them.

Battle Engine
Again, the Death Shroud/Spiny Growth mix can put this thing up to ARM23 effective, and with 24 boxes? That's pretty much Heavy Beast durability.  pThags can run this thing well enough, and buff its swings up to PS17; if you can get some corpses then things will get nasty if you can tag enemy heavies.

Just make sure you leave the Spawning Vessel at home if you bring this guy, because they'll be competing for corpse tokens (to an extent, at least).

Sample 35pt Army
We'll start with a Carnivean, Shredder, and Gatorman Posse:

pThags [-5]
-Carnivean [11]
-Shredder [2]
5 Gatorman Posse [9]

This puts us at 17 points.  We have a solid front line, and our defensive animi covered. We want a heavy to start the piece trade, and possibly a bit of fury management.

I've been liking the Angelius as of late, so what the hell.  Plus, you can go high-DEF, moderate ARM, and you get a nice animus.  Add in the +2STR spell, and things get fun. That puts us to 26 points, leaving 9 for anything else we want. 

pThags [-5]
-Carnivean [11]
-Angelius [9]
-Shredder [2]
5 Gatorman Posse [9]

Total: 26

We could go for a third heavy at this point, or we could go for more support.  I'm not willing to drop the Shredder, and I'm not into dropping down for a min posse.  At this point, I would consider fast flankers to harass the enemy.  One way to spend 9 points would be: Anyssa Ryval [4], Totem Hunter [3], Forsaken [2].

I know I warned about Anyssa, but she's reasonably accurate already, has prey, and should be operating on the periphary of the board anyway.  Totem Hunter lets me put a fast flanker on the other side.  These two will combine to try to kill support models.  And the Forsaken?  It eats fury, and threatens a Blight Shroud mid/late game.

Not Dead, Just Technical Difficulties, and Lock 'n' Load-bound

The Off-Topic Part
I'm not dead, but the month-long silence was induced by the death of my new laptop.  Turns out that spontaneous hardware failure is inconvenient when it comes to using a computer to, y'know, update a blog.  Fortunately, there's this thing called a 'warranty', and ASUS has a decent phone tech support group.

Lock 'n' Load
Yep, I'm going to Lock 'n' Load.  Got the ticket, getting travel arrangements settled...and there's the to-do list.

1) Practice Timed Games
Kind of a no-brainer; a casual game has a much different tempo than a timed tourney game.

2) Pick a Bloody Faction (Probably Legion...or maybe Cryx?)
I've got a bit of the faction ADD.  Part of the 'practice timed games' schtick involves knowing your pieces and being well-practiced with them.  I'm in the middle of repainting my Legion (stripped the metal carni-chassis as they kept falling over...) and Cryx (for the hell of it?).

The other consideration with picking a bloody faction is packing; I'm kinda flying out from the other side of the country and so space is an issue.  Legion gets a nod as I can run beast-heavy, whereas Cryx tends to need more infantry (outside of, say, Morty).

Of course, this also involves figuring out which events I'm entering, but what the hell.

3) Paint That Faction
...kind of a no-brainer, but I'm going to bring a painted army to Lock 'n' Load.  Come on.

4) Take Pictures
...well, duh.  Assuming I have a functional laptop at that point, there might even be batreps.

Wrapup
I intend to get back to fairly regular posts, but laptop and real-life issues kinda interefered.  Who woulda thunk it?

Up Next
Rambling speculation on Legion
Finishing up the 'minions' posts
Rambling speculation on Cryx

Rambling about Colossals?  [pending receipt of the next NQ]

Moonlighting with Minions: Trollbloods

After a slight hiatus from my 'moonlighting' articles, and at the prodding of one my local buddies (well, now local 'press ganger' I suppose) I'm back to it, and going to hit up our favorite irate hard-to-put-down medium-based army.

Solos of note: Trollkin Whelps
This is pretty much what you've got for fury management/out-of-activation healing for your battlegroup.  Two points give you five guys, and you can either start 'em on the table OR have them come into being when your big guys get hit.  They can be sacrificed in your control phase to drop Fury off a beast.  On the downside, this requires your opponent to cooperate.

Honestly, this is about it for non-faction-specific support in terms of units and solos.  You are passing up on some wicked stuff like Fell Callers and Kriel Stone bearers, for example.

The Warlocks
Grim Angus
Who likes hunters?  (No, not the Cygnar light jack...)  You've got two faction-specific spells.  Cross-Country is a PAthfinder buff along with Hunter, so if you've got a ranged beast in your battlegroup without native pathfinder, you can get mileage out of it.  Return Fire lets you, you guessed it, return fire, but it's faction specific (and since you have to SURVIVE the hit, it kinda goes with ranged beasts...).  Otherwise, your feat and movement debuffs are kinda useful.

This guy would be very picky about a battlegroup (and want ranged stuff) but if you could bring a heavy hitter and still get some ranged, or use Cross Country on something other than an Earthborn...there's some potential, but it's picky with this guy at best.

Grissel 1 & 2
All about faction infantry, more or less.
Hoarluk Doomshaper, Shaman of the Gnarls
This guy's got a little potential.  You've got a feat that impacts enemies only, and only Fortune is faction-specific.  Banishing Ward, at least, is good for anyone.  He's compatible with minions, at least, but doesn't necessarily do anything spectacular for infantry.

Hoarluk Doomshaper, Rage of Dhunia
Refuge is faction-specific, but you have to survive the hit, so it likes a beast again.  therwise, this guy is all about beasts.  I guess if you want to bring a minion unit  with him he'll work, but he really kinda wants a hefty battlegroup.

Gunnbjorn
Your feat guarantees that any minion infantry you bring (outside of dug-in Brigands) is gonna get iced on feat turn, because they're the ones that will be easiest to hit.  I suppose Snipe is a nice bonus, and if you really want to bring Brigands and shooty troll beasts, you can make him work.

Honestly, you're better off looking elsewhere.

Madrak 1 & 2
These guys are both all about friendly faction infantry.

Borka Kegslayer
Other than his feat, this guy can work with minions.  His spell list is notably lacking in the word 'faction', and if you bring a heavy or two, this guy'll get mileage out of his feat.  Honestly, he's got potential.

And, dude.  He's DRUNK AND BELLIGERANT.  Come on.  That's gotta count for something, right?

Calandra Truthsayer
Minion-friendly DEF buff?  Enemy-only attack debuff?  Minion-friendly feat?  Yeah, we have a winner here.  She is 100% compatible with minions.

Jarl Skuld
Tactical supremacy, quicken, and weald secrets are all compatible with minions.  The only thing you lose out with Minions is that your feat turns into an LOS-blocker instead of a feat-turn Veil of Mists spam-fest.

Honestly, this guy's not bad.  You lose out on a little, but not nearly as much as the average troll caster.

Overall
Calandra's about as good as it gets for minion-friendly warlocks.  I believe it was Lamoron that said it; 'grab Calandra, an Earthborn Dire Troll, an Axer, and call it.'  That's not bad advice at all.  I'd say you could make Jarl work, though you lose a bit on the feat.  The Doomshapers are more beast-centered, but could learn to love some minion infantry.  Borka's semi-workable, but you lose out on the feat's burst of speed for your minions, which hurts.

Honestly, though, you lose so much in-faction support via fell callers, krielstones, and whatnot that I feel like Trolls are probably last on the list of minion buddies.

List Building: Scaling

First off, I'd like to briefly thank everyone who still reads this.  I had a break from blogging and WarmaHordes due to a mix of Christmas Holidays, periodic head-splodey-branded illness, and then my computer kinda falling apart.

But, hey, I'm back and I plan on resuming a 2-3 post per month rate of blogging.

What tickled my brain this time around was the concept of scaling lists versus building to a points level.

The Inspiration: The Journeyman League
Part of what got me thinking was the Journeyman League: start with a battlegroup, and build slowly.

Benefits
The bright side of building up from a small core is that you tend to know how things work at the core. You get used to the caster and battlegroup, and slowly add support.  There's less thought in picking up a core (which faction I like?)

Cons
 The Journeyman League is fine for a learning experience, and it's good on the pocketbook for folks, as you can acquire things slowly, versus dropping a few hundred bucks at a time.  The downside?  You're locked into a battlegroup and caster for the first part.  Options are limited, and growing at 5-10 points a time changes the way you build a list.  You may not contemplate more expensive options/packages.

The Point on Scaling
Simply put?  There are some things that work at higher point levels.  There are three basic ways I think scaling applies:
1) Option Cost
2) Spell Efficiency
3) Utility

Cost of Options
This is among the simplest of the scaling factors I can think of.  Some stuff cost more points than others.  Look at Winter Guard Infantry: they're not too expensive as a unit at 4/6.  However, you can dump as much as 13 points into the so-called 'Deathstar' after we max out the unit, add an officer/standard, a trio of maniacs with rocket launchers, and a loud Kovnik to keep them in line.

The question is, do you want to invest the points in the packages at a given points level?  You are probably not gonna grab these boys at 15pts (...though you could make it work, I suppose, especially with an Iron Flesh caster or eSorscha), and at 25, the same question applies.  Will you have enough points left for useful support you need?

Basically, some packages become more affordable as the price goes up.

Spell Efficiency
This one's been running through my head since I saw a threat speculating on whether 'Full Throttle' was a trap or not.  For those of you who don't rock a Full Throttle caster, it's a 3-focus spell that allows all battlegroup jacks to run/charge for no focus, and gain boosted melee attacks.

On the one hand, this looks cool.  On the other hand, there's the question of whether or not the spell is worth it.  Let's keep a Khador theme up, and pretend we have a Kodiak in a Full Throttle battlegroup.  If I cast Full Throttle, and charge with a Juggernaut, it's the same as loading it up with three focus: one for the charge, two more for boosted initials.  If I allocate the Juggy focus for extra attacks, each extra swing is basically two more focus (one actual off the caster, one effective for the boost).  Unearthly Rage is a similar math problem.

The second issue with such spells is a points-level thing: Full Throttle becomes more hideously efficient as you bring more jacks.  A Full Throttle (or Karchev with Unearthly Rage) becomes more efficient as they bring more melee attacks (...and Beast 09 + Thresher + Full Throttle = Hilarious amount of effective focus).  However, you have to bring more jacks to buff with Full Throttle, which gets expensive.

My point?  Some options/spells don't become efficient until higher points levels, based on how they scale.

Utility
This one is a bit tougher to quantify.  There's a thread in the Khador forum about why they don't often run the Juggernaut, despite liking it. At lower point levels, you need your points to do more.  It's an incremental cost on a model-by-model basis: I can take a Juggernaut at 7 points, and it can wreck a hard target with a full focus load.  I take take Beast 09 at 11 points, and it can wreck a hard target, out-threat the Juggernaut, and murder infantry/living models.

Can I bring a Juggernaut + 4 points of stuff that'll do the same stuff as Beast 09? 

That's my utility question at lower points.  I'll have better odds of winning if I bring in more capabilities, and as such I just can't afford to specialize as much at lower point levels.  It's why you're not as likely to see specialized warjacks at lower levels (IE: Marauder, the Slam-Bot) because you run a risk of not having what you need when you need it.

An Example
I'm going to use my buddy pButcher to illustrate scaling.

At low point levels, you're unlikely to use Full Throttle.  As discussed, its efficiency goes up as you bring more warjacks; you need more points to bring more warjacks.

So, what about Iron Flesh?  The larger infantry unit you bring, the more benefit you'll get out of the thing.  Kayazay Assassins get a nod here because they love Iron Flesh, then can pop mini-feat and take Butcher's 'Fury' damage buff to wreak some serious havoc.

Alternatively, Iron Flesh + Focus Camp on the Butcher himself can get kinda silly.  Why?  At lower point levels, the enemy's unlikely to have too many things that can readily deal with DEF17, ARM 23 maniacs with 20 health that just want to close and apply weaponmaster attacks with MAT9.  This kind of killing is most likely going to fall on the enemy's heavy warjack/beast; they might not have more than 1-2.  However, as poitns go up, the number of heavy hitters go up, so while pButch can still camp/solo stuff, it's not as likely to happen.


Wrapup
And, finally, what's the journeyman league got to do with it?

I'm going to divert here to the latest NQ article on Cryx power progression with the battle box.  Note that they dropped the Defiler in a hurry, and once they hit 50, the Slayer got dropped for an incremental upgrade for Nightmare.  My point is that you don't necessarily want to set a 25pt force, and go immediately to a 50pt without contemplating changing some of the 25pt stuff.