First, I'd like to offer a quick apology to readers; my posting was somewhat interrupted by a barrage of work-related travel, then travel-related illness that forced me on something of a hiatus.
That aside, I decided I'd paint up some of my Retribution, and try to make my favorite borderline-psychotic elf work in a theme list: Dawnlord Vyros. Everyone's favorite flanking caster got himself a new theme list in No Quarter #35.
The Tiers
The Limits
Non-character warjacks with field dependent.
Small-based Dawnguard units; any Houseguard units.
Arcanist solos, Dawnguard solos, and Houseguard solos.
Tier 1
Obey the aforementioned limits
FA of non-character Dawnguard units/solos goes up by 1
Tier 2
Battlegroup has 2+ heavies
Point cost of heavies in the battlegroup goes down by 1
Tier 3
2+ units
For every two units you have, one heavy in the battlegroup gets Advance Move
Tier 4
the army has 4+ warjacks
Each jack in the battlegroup gets 1 focus at the start of Control Phase 1
On the Benefits/Restrictions
For me, Tier 3 is the money. Tier one is so-so; given the subsequent restrictions (and lack of extra unit attachments) I don't see redundancy in the units as a major benefit. As we have all of zero Houseguard solos and two Dawnguard solos, I'm not sure I see a benefit there, either. Scyirs are somewhat questionable with Vyros, as heavies belong in his battlegroup and lights still like the benefit. At best, they're a guided MAT10 weaponmaster missile that fires through your Dawnguard lines. Thanes are useful for feat turn and as flankers, but I'm not sure I'd want to take 3 in the army.
Tier two, however, is pretty easy to get to. Vyros likes warjacks, and he's gonna like cheaper heavies even more. Seven point Manticores are hard to argue with, and I can live with 8pt Hydras a bit more. The Phoenix at 9 is still nice, since you're probably not going to use the arc node and frankly, a 360 front arc + reach can be a liability to a canny opponent, as you kind of lose the benefit of free strikes.
Tier 3 is where we start making money. Advance move on heavies is nice, and with access to Houseguard units (and the 2pt Heavy Rifle Team) we can reasonably get advance move on a couple of heavies as low as 35pts. Any of our heavies can use this: Manticores can put suppressive fire just outside the enemy DZ, Hydras can fuel up and move into the mid-line on turn 2, and a Phoenix can get in there and be ready for a devastating charge or a nasty Combustion even faster.
Tier 4 is bound to be nicer for larger games, as you'll be able to push your jacks up faster and still crank out your upkeeps on turn one.
Downside of the Restrictions
Offhand, you'll notice a couple of things you're NOT gonna get in this list:
Eyriss
Stormfall Archers
Eyriss is your only real answer for upkeep removal. This could hurt you. You're otherwise stuck with Soulless for anti-magic duties, which could be passable. Stormfall Archers are also a bit of a loss, as they're one of our main answers to high-DEF infantry and/or stealth stuff, plus they can do a number on hard targets as well. I like these guys, what can I say?
You also lose out on some of our hard-hitting solos and our movement shenanigans, but I've always kinda felt Vyros liked the straightforward approach anyways.
Working the Tier
My experience with the tier is largely at the 35pt level. I think aiming for T3 is going to maximize your benefit, as it's unrealistic to get to T4. I want my cheap heavies, and I want my heavies to be able to get up there in a hurry.
1) The Choice of Heavies
Honestly, I'm currently liking a pair of Manticores for my T2 requirement. Here are some reasons why:
1) Covering fire WAY out there early on
You can help control enemy movement, and with a turn one mobility, you can be 14" across the field, add in a foot-long range for covering fire and you ARE putting it on their doorstep. If you go first, you can get some great board control against enemy infantry
2) Enemy stealth people don't like covering fire
...if you can't kill them early, you can at least control them somewhat. One template isn't too hard to get around; two near each other forces a considerable detour
3) The feat can help fuel them
Against enemy infantry lists, it's not going to be too terribly hard to slag a handful of guys during your feat turn, and fuel these things.
Pondering Hydras
On the one hand, you can also push Hydras up to the mid-line, and they can set up shop. One of them can get two focus from Vyros, one gets one from an Arcanist; you then chuck up Inviolable Resolve and Mobility and you have Hydras at the midline and your infantry buff in play. Next turn, you can fully fuel them with 3 focus, upkeep, and have a couple left over in case you feel the need to cast Hallowed Avenger.
T
he Con: this is more of a gimmick in that Stealth still shuts you down. On the other hand, you can bounce some high-damage shots off enemy targets, and start doing a number on them as they CANNOT hide from you unless they have stealth.
On Phoenixes
I'm hesitant about the phoenix for a few reasons. On the bright side, combust is a fine way to kill high-DEF enemy infantry, and you still have the Phoenix's lovely PS17 reach weapon. On the downside, you're still probably never going to use the Arc Node. Finally, a canny opponent will exploit your 360 front arc to avoid free strikes, and a phoenix has a large area around it where they can do so. The gun on it is so-so, so pushing up to the midfield early on really only uses this thing's melee and combust capabilities.
I just think you can get more for less in jacks with this particular tier; I still like the Phoenix and it still has a nasty threat range with reach and mobility.
2) The Units
If we're going to Tier 3, you probably want to grab a pair of Heavy Rifle Teams. It's 4 points for some armor-piercing shots (still vulnerable to stealth, but frankly, if the enemy is stealth-heavy you just try to grab/hold territory with these guys. They're 2 bloody points). Let them run turn one, and set up for shots on turn 2 and later. Some people take exception to armor piercing as well, and with an effective RAT7 with the binocular grunt, you can make people leery of getting heavies nearby, or even heavy infantry.
So, let's pretend you're gonna take two of these. Let's pretend you're taking two Manticores as well. You've spent a total of 6 points after accounting for Vyros' jack points, and if you're shooting for 35 you have a solid 29 points. Let's be honest, you're gonna take a couple of Arcanists, so you've spent 8 points and have 27 to dump on two more units and any more solos you choose to take.
At this point, you're going to want to decide what you want for a core. We have movement control, heavy hitters for melee, and anti-heavy gunfire. I would like a little accurate melee damage. When it comes to Vyros, I have a soft spot for Invictors. Expensive? Yeah. You get what you pay for, and Vyros doesn't mind a ranged punch. You have an easier time on the feat turn, and in a pinch if you can get the ranges right, you can mess up even Stealth infantry, as most of them don't like RAT8 tag-teams that re-roll misses. You have 360 front arcs on heavies, so you can also get the flank bonus out there a bit easier, then you have MAT9 weaponmasters at PS10, which isn't bad. You ARE dependent on your jacks, though, for this to work. I would consider a Griffin with them as a flank-bot for them and for Vyros.
On the other hand, you can go for the Houseguard module. At 9 points, you can get a fully-equipped unit of Halberdiers; they can go up to ARM20 in shieldwall with Inviolable Resolve, and with the minifeat, a pair of them can tag-team something at MAT10. You get your hitting power, AND any guns behind them still see through 'em. This brings me to the Riflemen; you have good range (still worrying about stealth...) and with the UA, they're almost tailor-made to go with Halberdiers as they can accurately CRA into melee.
3) Solos & Support
Frankly, take your two arcanists already. Just do it. There are currently no Houseguard solos, so forget that. You have access to a pair of Dawnguard solos: the Scyir, and the Thane. As you're likely to keep warjacks in Vyros' battlegroup for the benefits (Mobility & Bird's Eye), the Scyir is really just a guided missile. Then again, it's a MAT10 PS12 weaponmaster guided missile with flank, and if you're rocking Dawnguard, you can fire it through the lines and knock a chunk out of things. It's no Mage Hunter Assassin, but it'll do some damage and not draw near the fire the MHA does.
The Thane, in my mind, competes with the Griffin. The Thane is a great flanker: it can hold down objectives and still contribute, and in a pinch it can throw out a nasty charge at a distance; MAT10 PS14 is on par with the Griffin. Plus, multi-fire on a POW12 gun is just plain fun; you can mow down infantry or ding up softer targets. Don't forget you can go for a RAT9 with the aim (fun if someone gets a high-DEF target or a caster within 10") or get a nice scoot 'n' shoot with multi-fire + ride-by attacks.
The Griffin, on the other hand, does two things: VERY long-ranged missile, and flank-bot/distractor. Start with SPD6, add 3" for a charge, and 2" for reach. If you fleet, you can get another 2", and with Mobility, that's another 2" still; you have a max threat range of 15" in any direction, but it costs you. More likely you'll either fleet or mobility, but a Griffin already has MAT8 on the charge with the spear. Two focus is enough to eke out a 13" threat range with fleet + charge, or you can boost to be sure you hit. It's also an ARM18 light with reach; if you are benefitting from Bird's Eye you can tie up a LOT of infantry or solos.
Some Sample Lists
List 1: Houseguard Heavy, 35pts
Dawnlord Vyros [-6]
-Manticore [7]
-Manticore [7]
-Griffin [4]
10 Houseguard Halberdiers [7]
-Officer, Standard [2]
-WA: Soulless [1]
6 Houseguard Riflement [5]
-Officer, Standard [2]
Houseguard Heavy Rifle Team [2]
Houseguard Heavy Rifle Team [2]
Arcanist [1]
Arcanist [1]
The Logic: Manticores push up, establish covering fire. Halberdiers provide a front wall; riflemen and rifle teams abuse Ranked Attacks for all they're worth. Arcanists do what they do. Griffin serves as a guided missile/flankbot for Vyros. Optional: drop the Griffin; trade its delaying tactics/threat range for a full unit of Riflemen and another Soulless. I like the Griffin, though.
List 2: Invictors Holding the Line
Vyros [-6]
-Manticore [7]
-Manticore [7]
-Griffin [4]
10 Invictors [10]
-Officer, Standard [2]
-WA: Soulless [1]
6 Houseguard Halberdiers [4]
Heavy Rifle Team [2]
Heavy Rifle Team [2]
Arcanist [1]
Arcanist [1]
Here, we're abusing Halberdiers as a roadblock with Set Defense. You could again drop the Griffin, and free up points to upgrade the Halberdiers with either the UA or a full-up unit + soulless, but I lean towards the griffin, again. Your strategy is much the same, except all your troops are capable in melee, and you still have a decent shooting contingent.
Overall
This is a tight tier to get the meat out of in 35pts, no lie. I do feel that there's mileage to get out of T3's Advance Move on heavy jacks, and if you were only going to go with one heavy and some lights, you'd have more options. Still, I think that guns + advance move on 7pt Manticores open up some fun opportunities for board control. Just be mindful that you are missing out on Eiryss and Stormfalls, though.
Showing posts with label vyros. Show all posts
Showing posts with label vyros. Show all posts
Monday, October 3, 2011
Wednesday, February 9, 2011
Thoughts on Vyros after a few games
After doing a bit of a writeup on Vyros, I figured I'd put in some more test games. I've played a handful of games (one 50, the others 35) with this list:
Vyros
-Discordia
-Phoenix
10 Invictors w/ Officer, Standard
-Soulless
Arcanist
Magister
Scyir
p/e Eiryss (depending on whether I know a Hordes/WM matchup is coming up)
Game 1: 50pts vs eStryker
I ran a slightly different list; in lieu of the Magister and Scyir there were a pair of MHAs; in lieu of a Phoenix there was a Manticore, and to make up the points I added another Manticore, a unit of Stormfall Archers, and probably one other solo.
Stryker hada heap of Stormknights (both varieties), Ol' Rowdy, a Stormclad, and a junior warcaster with a hunter.
He won the roll to go first, and with Advance move and a run, I had a bunch of ARM20 storm-things halfway across the board. (ARM15 + 3 for arcane shield + 2 for Deflection). I promptly wished for epic Eiryss as a means to knock 'em down to ARM17. As it was, Invictors advanced, mini-feated, and took down a couple of those guys, but not nearly enough. Manticores threw up covering fire, but it didn't do a lot since there was the good ol' Piper in the back ready to pass out pathfinder to counter the terrain.
The bright side? A Mage Hunter Assassin one-shotted the hunter; it was glorious. Then it died horribly, but it was a 2pt solo for a 6pt long-range sniper, so I'm down with that.
Past that, I botched the scenario and didn't get enough into the middle. One Manticore got in (another could have, but I botched a trample angle) and Striker promptly rolled +15 Strength on his overcharge roll. Myrmidons don't last long when the other guy rolls 2d6+13 base for damage, just sayin'.
Lessons Learned:
-2 Heavies is probably the limit with Vyros. A Griffin, points permitting, might be ok with the Invictors.
-Covering Fire helps SOME with the focus efficiency, but manticores are gonna get hungry when you go into melee.
-PAY ATTENTION TO THE SCENARIO. Not Vyros-related, but still.
Game 2: 35pts vs Legion
Opponent's Army
pLylyth
-Typhon
-Carnivean
-Scythean
-2x Shredder
2 Strider Deathstalkers
Shepherd
We rolled mosh pit (again) and I decided to not screw it up this time. Given the small model count, I figured my feat would be a bit 'eh'. Turn one here was mobility + Inviolable Resolve + Hallowed Avenger on the Phoenix. Focus to discordia (via arcanist) for imprint, and blammo! ARM21 vs ranged Invictors!
His turn one, he moved into position. and promptly shot down three Invictors with his lovely little deathstalkers. Screw you, Sniper.
Second turn? Advance, mobility, focus to Discordia, feat on Vyros. the Invictors advance and pop their mini-feat. They manage to rip up both Shredders and, importantly, pop the Shepherd. Eiyrss attempts to KO a Strider by walking into range and firing, only to pull a '3' on the dice. My dice do this for a bit, but since I got the Shepherd, I'm not caring too much. The Magister also manages a crit knockdown on the scythean after shoving it 3 inches back, so I'm down with that. The Phoenix kicks a boosted shot into the Carnivean, and knocks a chunk off.
...I promptly lose the Phoenix to a pissed-off Carnivean. Typhon munches on Eiryss, and the Scythean meanders back into position after forcing to stand up. However, my opponent has a HEAP of fury in the field. A couple more Dawnguard go away, thanks to the sniper. However, ARM21 dawnguard (thanks to discordia) discourage the sprays that I'm expecting in a list like this.
And here? It gets messy. I tie up the Scythean with a combo-smite, and then engage the Carnivean as best I can. Discordia charges Typhon and does some damage (and also engages the Deathstalker). I have Vyros with a couple focus, and think to myself "Ok, Lylyth's just behind Typhon; time to go for broke and try to get her. May not have another turn."
So, I charge Lylyth, miss...then realize Typhon's in flank range. Vyros crushes Typhon's face something bad, AND engages Lylyth.
His Carnivean frenzies and KOs a trooper something fierce, a shredder overloads and whiffs on another shredder. Lylyth dodges the free strike to move across the mosh pit, and the Scythean eats that pesky little Magister. Hey, the 2pt bugger tied up a 9pt heavy for a couple turns; it's a good price for me to pay.
Discordia gets Concentrated Power and has a word with the Carnivean; this word is DIE! Vyros eyes the Scythean, thinks a moment, then pops a Strangehold on the thing (I'd dropped Inviolable Resolve because by now, I had about 2-3 Invictors left, and one was the standard bearer. Some losses due to meandering away from the scythean and death via free strikes. Hey, same thing happed to his Deathstalker with Discordia).
So, he's got a scythean with nothing in melee reach and only a move OR action next turn.
Vyros streaks across the field and finishes off the Scythean after Discordia works it over, and engages Lylyth again. Lylyth tries to back away, gets one-shotted in a free strike.
Lessons Learned
-Other guy had WAY too much fury for pLylyth, and not enough fury management
-Vyros' feat has issues with smaller model-count lists (obviously)
-ARM21 vs ranged dawnguard shut down a lot of strategies
-Vyros is SICK in melee, if you do get to use him. MAT10, PS14+3d6 = WHEEE! Seriously, it's great fun.
-in a pinch, Invictors can do ok damage, but they are CRAP without flank vs. hard targets, like a Carnivean.
Round 3: Trollbloods
Gunnbjorn
-Impaler
-Bomber
-Slag Troll
5x Trolls with the d3 shots each
Min Pygmy Snipers
Min Scouts
Scenario: 10" circles on either side of the middle
My comrade decided to grab his Trollbloods in lieu of his Khador. He ended up building a Gunnbjorn tier list, which was interesting. Those guys with multiple wounds and d3 POW13s on an aim are a bit worrisome.
Basically, in this game he opted not to do a lot of advancing, and that cost him. On the other hand, ARM20 warjacks and ARM21 infantry (combined with immunity to blasts) is pretty rough on a shooty list. Long story short: all he had that advanced were the scouts. The Scyir ran off to get one objective; the Invictors and Discordia cleared the scouts off the other.
Lessons Learned
-Discordia (especially if it can cover most of your guys) and Inviolable Resolve are sick against ranged armies.
-Invictors are tidy for putting down multiple infantry, OR doing a massed CRA into hard targets. Nothing like a POW20 to the face...
-With a Reach jack alive, the invictors are bloody frightening
Round 4: eMadrak Trolls
eMadrak
-Axer
-Dire Troll Mauler
Full unit of Kriel Warriors + Caber throws + UA
Full unit of Champions
Whelps
Hero
Ok, this was a little more frightening. This was Break the Line against a crap-ton of melee troops and threat, and nil shooting. On the bright side, this freed up Discordia for more maneuvering.
Basically, he had beasts/Madrak in the middle, champs + hero on one flank, and warriors on the other. That's a LOT of medium bases and a lotta pain waiting to happen.
After he advanced, I moved up, mini-feated, popped feat, and shot up a bunch of Kriel Warriors. Terrain slowed his army a bit, and at least kept the champs from advancing too fast on a flank. i KO about half of the warriors, but not enough to cause a morale check. The Phoenix puts a dent in the Axer.
Then...the charge. Discordia eats three Kriel Warrior charges (AND Madrak's little 'get an extra d6 on damage rolls and lose some DEF and/or ARM) but remains standing. The phoenix eats a charge from the Axer, and a few troopers go down at the end of it.
The next turn, the Phoenix beats down the Axer and puts some damage on the Mauler. Flanking Invictors rip it apart and take down some guys, but it's not enough to pull out a scenario win for me.
I have no line of sight to Madrak (not with enough firepower, anyway...) and there's a unit of Champions bearing down on a flank. Honestly, I was a bit intimidated by all the bloody wounds (ARM18, weaponmasters, 8 wounds each...yeah, it's like a squad of killy solos.) and their firepower. He wipes out my guys in one flank, pulls Kriel warriors back, and his caster claims the other one on his side.
Lessons Learned
-I hate high-ARM, multi-wound infantry that kill you in melee
-Trolls and medim basers make it easier to line up shots
-Tough is annoying for Vyros' feat
-Medium bases cut out tramples (shock, I know) which cuts down options for the feat
-Focus on scenario
Overall
I think Vyros performs decently. His feat is no game-winner, but can get you a few extra focus for your 'jacks on a messy turn. It'll let vyros upkeep Inviolable Resolve, throw Mobility up, and maybe even get off a Stranglehold (which is very nice WHEN it happens, mind you...)
I do believe if you're going to run invictors, you need to commit to at least one reach warjack. The Phoenix is a solid choice here, and the arc ode may get some use. Mostly, though, the flank is solid. The Griffin is a backup choice here, points permitting.
If you're lighter on numbers (or like screwing with the other guy) a Magister is wonderful. Throwing enemy heavies back a few inches in this game can be sick for them to deal with. Considering that there's not always enough heavy-duty firepower to go around (well, with invictors; they're great for thinning enemy ranks) you'll want that to delay enemy plans, or for scenario purposes.
The Scyir...not so bad, as he can provide you with a nice homing missle to fire through your Dawnguard. Hitting something at POW12+4d6 and MAT10 on the charge is bloody nice, and being able to get through your Dawnguard is nice, too. I'm not sure I'd marshal to him (you might as well to it to the Dawnguard themselves) but he's also workable enough as a scenario grabber.
As we all knew, the Soulless is situational. The situation didn't arise, and another arcanist would've been nice.
Arcanists are nice. Full stop, end of story. They only become useless when you lose all your myrmidons.
Discordia + Invictors + Inviolable Resolve makes some players cry, hard, if they don't have access to fire or corrosion or snipers.
I think you can run Vyros with Sentinels just fine as well, but you'll need to take something for riot control, as you'll have less ability to thin out the hordes at range. I suspect that Stormfall Archers wouldn't be out of place for such a task.
Vyros
-Discordia
-Phoenix
10 Invictors w/ Officer, Standard
-Soulless
Arcanist
Magister
Scyir
p/e Eiryss (depending on whether I know a Hordes/WM matchup is coming up)
Game 1: 50pts vs eStryker
I ran a slightly different list; in lieu of the Magister and Scyir there were a pair of MHAs; in lieu of a Phoenix there was a Manticore, and to make up the points I added another Manticore, a unit of Stormfall Archers, and probably one other solo.
Stryker hada heap of Stormknights (both varieties), Ol' Rowdy, a Stormclad, and a junior warcaster with a hunter.
He won the roll to go first, and with Advance move and a run, I had a bunch of ARM20 storm-things halfway across the board. (ARM15 + 3 for arcane shield + 2 for Deflection). I promptly wished for epic Eiryss as a means to knock 'em down to ARM17. As it was, Invictors advanced, mini-feated, and took down a couple of those guys, but not nearly enough. Manticores threw up covering fire, but it didn't do a lot since there was the good ol' Piper in the back ready to pass out pathfinder to counter the terrain.
The bright side? A Mage Hunter Assassin one-shotted the hunter; it was glorious. Then it died horribly, but it was a 2pt solo for a 6pt long-range sniper, so I'm down with that.
Past that, I botched the scenario and didn't get enough into the middle. One Manticore got in (another could have, but I botched a trample angle) and Striker promptly rolled +15 Strength on his overcharge roll. Myrmidons don't last long when the other guy rolls 2d6+13 base for damage, just sayin'.
Lessons Learned:
-2 Heavies is probably the limit with Vyros. A Griffin, points permitting, might be ok with the Invictors.
-Covering Fire helps SOME with the focus efficiency, but manticores are gonna get hungry when you go into melee.
-PAY ATTENTION TO THE SCENARIO. Not Vyros-related, but still.
Game 2: 35pts vs Legion
Opponent's Army
pLylyth
-Typhon
-Carnivean
-Scythean
-2x Shredder
2 Strider Deathstalkers
Shepherd
We rolled mosh pit (again) and I decided to not screw it up this time. Given the small model count, I figured my feat would be a bit 'eh'. Turn one here was mobility + Inviolable Resolve + Hallowed Avenger on the Phoenix. Focus to discordia (via arcanist) for imprint, and blammo! ARM21 vs ranged Invictors!
His turn one, he moved into position. and promptly shot down three Invictors with his lovely little deathstalkers. Screw you, Sniper.
Second turn? Advance, mobility, focus to Discordia, feat on Vyros. the Invictors advance and pop their mini-feat. They manage to rip up both Shredders and, importantly, pop the Shepherd. Eiyrss attempts to KO a Strider by walking into range and firing, only to pull a '3' on the dice. My dice do this for a bit, but since I got the Shepherd, I'm not caring too much. The Magister also manages a crit knockdown on the scythean after shoving it 3 inches back, so I'm down with that. The Phoenix kicks a boosted shot into the Carnivean, and knocks a chunk off.
...I promptly lose the Phoenix to a pissed-off Carnivean. Typhon munches on Eiryss, and the Scythean meanders back into position after forcing to stand up. However, my opponent has a HEAP of fury in the field. A couple more Dawnguard go away, thanks to the sniper. However, ARM21 dawnguard (thanks to discordia) discourage the sprays that I'm expecting in a list like this.
And here? It gets messy. I tie up the Scythean with a combo-smite, and then engage the Carnivean as best I can. Discordia charges Typhon and does some damage (and also engages the Deathstalker). I have Vyros with a couple focus, and think to myself "Ok, Lylyth's just behind Typhon; time to go for broke and try to get her. May not have another turn."
So, I charge Lylyth, miss...then realize Typhon's in flank range. Vyros crushes Typhon's face something bad, AND engages Lylyth.
His Carnivean frenzies and KOs a trooper something fierce, a shredder overloads and whiffs on another shredder. Lylyth dodges the free strike to move across the mosh pit, and the Scythean eats that pesky little Magister. Hey, the 2pt bugger tied up a 9pt heavy for a couple turns; it's a good price for me to pay.
Discordia gets Concentrated Power and has a word with the Carnivean; this word is DIE! Vyros eyes the Scythean, thinks a moment, then pops a Strangehold on the thing (I'd dropped Inviolable Resolve because by now, I had about 2-3 Invictors left, and one was the standard bearer. Some losses due to meandering away from the scythean and death via free strikes. Hey, same thing happed to his Deathstalker with Discordia).
So, he's got a scythean with nothing in melee reach and only a move OR action next turn.
Vyros streaks across the field and finishes off the Scythean after Discordia works it over, and engages Lylyth again. Lylyth tries to back away, gets one-shotted in a free strike.
Lessons Learned
-Other guy had WAY too much fury for pLylyth, and not enough fury management
-Vyros' feat has issues with smaller model-count lists (obviously)
-ARM21 vs ranged dawnguard shut down a lot of strategies
-Vyros is SICK in melee, if you do get to use him. MAT10, PS14+3d6 = WHEEE! Seriously, it's great fun.
-in a pinch, Invictors can do ok damage, but they are CRAP without flank vs. hard targets, like a Carnivean.
Round 3: Trollbloods
Gunnbjorn
-Impaler
-Bomber
-Slag Troll
5x Trolls with the d3 shots each
Min Pygmy Snipers
Min Scouts
Scenario: 10" circles on either side of the middle
My comrade decided to grab his Trollbloods in lieu of his Khador. He ended up building a Gunnbjorn tier list, which was interesting. Those guys with multiple wounds and d3 POW13s on an aim are a bit worrisome.
Basically, in this game he opted not to do a lot of advancing, and that cost him. On the other hand, ARM20 warjacks and ARM21 infantry (combined with immunity to blasts) is pretty rough on a shooty list. Long story short: all he had that advanced were the scouts. The Scyir ran off to get one objective; the Invictors and Discordia cleared the scouts off the other.
Lessons Learned
-Discordia (especially if it can cover most of your guys) and Inviolable Resolve are sick against ranged armies.
-Invictors are tidy for putting down multiple infantry, OR doing a massed CRA into hard targets. Nothing like a POW20 to the face...
-With a Reach jack alive, the invictors are bloody frightening
Round 4: eMadrak Trolls
eMadrak
-Axer
-Dire Troll Mauler
Full unit of Kriel Warriors + Caber throws + UA
Full unit of Champions
Whelps
Hero
Ok, this was a little more frightening. This was Break the Line against a crap-ton of melee troops and threat, and nil shooting. On the bright side, this freed up Discordia for more maneuvering.
Basically, he had beasts/Madrak in the middle, champs + hero on one flank, and warriors on the other. That's a LOT of medium bases and a lotta pain waiting to happen.
After he advanced, I moved up, mini-feated, popped feat, and shot up a bunch of Kriel Warriors. Terrain slowed his army a bit, and at least kept the champs from advancing too fast on a flank. i KO about half of the warriors, but not enough to cause a morale check. The Phoenix puts a dent in the Axer.
Then...the charge. Discordia eats three Kriel Warrior charges (AND Madrak's little 'get an extra d6 on damage rolls and lose some DEF and/or ARM) but remains standing. The phoenix eats a charge from the Axer, and a few troopers go down at the end of it.
The next turn, the Phoenix beats down the Axer and puts some damage on the Mauler. Flanking Invictors rip it apart and take down some guys, but it's not enough to pull out a scenario win for me.
I have no line of sight to Madrak (not with enough firepower, anyway...) and there's a unit of Champions bearing down on a flank. Honestly, I was a bit intimidated by all the bloody wounds (ARM18, weaponmasters, 8 wounds each...yeah, it's like a squad of killy solos.) and their firepower. He wipes out my guys in one flank, pulls Kriel warriors back, and his caster claims the other one on his side.
Lessons Learned
-I hate high-ARM, multi-wound infantry that kill you in melee
-Trolls and medim basers make it easier to line up shots
-Tough is annoying for Vyros' feat
-Medium bases cut out tramples (shock, I know) which cuts down options for the feat
-Focus on scenario
Overall
I think Vyros performs decently. His feat is no game-winner, but can get you a few extra focus for your 'jacks on a messy turn. It'll let vyros upkeep Inviolable Resolve, throw Mobility up, and maybe even get off a Stranglehold (which is very nice WHEN it happens, mind you...)
I do believe if you're going to run invictors, you need to commit to at least one reach warjack. The Phoenix is a solid choice here, and the arc ode may get some use. Mostly, though, the flank is solid. The Griffin is a backup choice here, points permitting.
If you're lighter on numbers (or like screwing with the other guy) a Magister is wonderful. Throwing enemy heavies back a few inches in this game can be sick for them to deal with. Considering that there's not always enough heavy-duty firepower to go around (well, with invictors; they're great for thinning enemy ranks) you'll want that to delay enemy plans, or for scenario purposes.
The Scyir...not so bad, as he can provide you with a nice homing missle to fire through your Dawnguard. Hitting something at POW12+4d6 and MAT10 on the charge is bloody nice, and being able to get through your Dawnguard is nice, too. I'm not sure I'd marshal to him (you might as well to it to the Dawnguard themselves) but he's also workable enough as a scenario grabber.
As we all knew, the Soulless is situational. The situation didn't arise, and another arcanist would've been nice.
Arcanists are nice. Full stop, end of story. They only become useless when you lose all your myrmidons.
Discordia + Invictors + Inviolable Resolve makes some players cry, hard, if they don't have access to fire or corrosion or snipers.
I think you can run Vyros with Sentinels just fine as well, but you'll need to take something for riot control, as you'll have less ability to thin out the hordes at range. I suspect that Stormfall Archers wouldn't be out of place for such a task.
Sunday, January 23, 2011
Evaluating Vyros
It's everyone's favorite sword-wielding elven warcaster, the Dawnlord Vyros. This guy's a little bit of an oddball caster and occasionally gets some flak. On the other hand, I like the idea of crushing someone's face in with a sword, and Vyros can do that. Vyros can also help deliver Warjacks to the fray, arguably faster than the rest of his faction at this point in time.
I'm going to run through the framework I've outlined in a previous post for putting my impressions down.
Round 1: Basics
1) How Hard is it to kill Vyros?
DEF 15, ARM 17, and a small base make Vyros one of the harder warcaster targets out there. Honestly, it's a sold combo of defense and armor: you need to be Terminus to have harder armor, and you're either Legion or eCaine if you have higher defense. He's upper middle-of-the-road for defensive stats, on top of a small base and no rear arc.
If you DO manage to hit him, he's sitting on 18 boxes. Not invincible, but pretty hefty. If he does camp on his focus, he's sitting on DEF 15 and ARM 23.
Invincible? No. But, if he's in terrain he's hard to shoot down, he's not too hard to hide, and he's reasonably durable.
2) Personal Threat Value
Vyros has no guns. He DOES have a PS14 reach sword with MAT 8. More than that, he's got flank [friendly warjack], so if you put a friendly warjack in melee with the target you are a MAT 10 PS14 weaponmaster.
Yeah, Vyros can wreck face. Can he get there? That SPD5 doesn't look too promising, but mobility turns him into a SPD7 Pathfinder, AND he can charge without paying attention at all to forests.
Vyros does NOT really have an offensive spell; technically he has Eliminator but it's half his focus for a POW13, 3" AOE and he can get a 2" move for each enemy it tags. Ok, this isn't bad, but you still probably won't use it so much.
If you fire Stranglehold at someone, it's only 2 focus, but with a POW11 and a need to damage the target you're going to be spending 3 focus because you'll either boost the hit or the power. It's a fun little denial spell that may work, but not a way to kill the target.
3) What kind of spells/utility does Vyros have?
Vyros is friendly to myrmidons, but in a different way than other warcasters. By this, I mean he's got a pair of neat spells and a solid ability to buff warjacks, but he does not have a way to make his jacks for focus efficient, a la Iron Aggression*. He's also sitting on FOCUS 6, and CMD 10.
First, Bird's Eye. That bird isn't for show. Vyros' battlegroup has no rear arc in his control area, and ignores clouds, forests, and intervening models when determining LOS. His buddies can hit you, wherever you are. Do be aware that this can allow the enemy to potentially work around free strikes, since you have to leave a warjack's melee range to get the hit.
Vyros' other moneymaker is Mobility. 2 Focus for Pathfinder and +2SPD for his warjacks. You can use this to fire warjacks through cover, or just to help them pace you. You can also increase warjack threat range; suddenly that Phoenix is hitting you from 13" away through a forest, and crushing your face in with a sword. Or, your other heavies are going 11" and crushing something when they get there.
The other explicit warjack buff is Hallowed Avenger. It's an upkeep that lets the friendly warjack charge for free if the enemy KOs a living target within 5" of the jack.
The last buff is Inviolable Resolve: good for a flat +2ARM and fearless. You do one of three potential things with this:
a) Make a warjack a little tougher
b) Make a Dawnguard unit even MORE annoying to kill (YAY ARM19 after defensive line)
c) make a lighter-ARM unit less allergic to blasts
Honestly, I'd rather use this to put Dawnguard up to needs-warjack-to-kill ARM19, though it doesn't help them against things like Corrosion.
Your other spells are offensive; Eliminator is an AOE with a side of 'move the Vyros'; however it's half your bloody Focus. Stranglehold is 2 focus and has a RNG of 10, but POW11 on top of 'must damage the model' limits the effectiveness of it; if it DOES go off then it makes the target forfeit its movement or charge as the owner decides.
4) Feat
Vyros' feat is one of those 'oddball' feats. If a friendly kills an enemy model with an attack, you get to allocate 1 focus to a friendly warjack in Vyros' battlegroup in his control area. Of note is the part that your own warjacks (especially those with reach) can basically stand still and start cutting everyone around them.
Round 2: Synthesis
5) Playstyle
Vyros has the melee capability and defensive stats to play in the second line. He's still gonna die if the enemy hits him with a fully-loaded warjack or a heavy warbeast with some attack buffs, but that's the game for you. Still, he CAN assassinate personally, especially if he's got Flank from a friendly warjack.
Turn one is probably Mobility + Inviolable resolve, and focus from arcanists to make sure his warjacks move upfield. Turn two may involve more Mobility, and possibly Hallowed Avenger. Note that with both upkeeps up, Vyros has a whopping four focus to hand out, so he's not necessarily going to be fueling a ton of warjacks.
6) Win Condition
Vyros can personally assassinate from 12" away. Measure range (since your threat range with Mobility is 12") and see if you can get a warjack in there, then go forth and beat the holy mess out of the target; if you can't kill it with 3-4 PS14 MAT 10 weaponmaster attacks then you should microwave your dice (or think twice about charging Karchev, maybe, I dunno).
Vyros has no particular tricks for a scenario victory outside of killing the hell out of anything in places you need for the enemy to not be.
Vyros is capable of hurling a fully-loaded heavy great distances; Mobility does great things to the enemy threat range.
If you feel like trying to make fully-boosted Hydra shots work, you can fuel a couple up and then use Bird's Eye to make a jolly lil' jack walk 8" and throw a POW15 up to 15". Hope you hit...
7) Army Composition
I admit that I'm still fine-tuning this. Basic framework involves a couple of heavy warjacks, and a heavily-armored infantry unit to slap Inviolable Resolve onto.
Myrmidon Selection
Phoenix: the Arc Node is optional, but otherwise it's a solid jack.
Hydra: ignoring forests and intervening models is always solid when you're a giant gun. Focus Battery is nice for a guy who likes to hold onto his focus. Might get iffy to keep them fueld, though.
Manticore: covering fire is always tactically useful, and these non-reach guys love an extra couple inches from Mobility.
Discordia: the imprint on top of Inviolable Resolve makes for some VERY hard-to-kill Dawnguard; ARM21 at range means the enemy will either rely on snipers or heavy warjack guns. Failing that, you can always find a use for a boostable spray and an accurate melee warjack.
Chimera: you really don't need a dedicated arc node.
Gorgon: Force Lock checks for the melee range of this warjack, so you double your Force Lock coverage, and make yourself that much more annoying/of a target.
Griffin: now it's an even longer-ranged missile, and a mini-thresher in Feat turns.
Frankly, I think you can make any of the heavies work with him, but I think the Hydra may have issues if you intend for Vyros to fuel them all the way if you want 'em full-up quickly. If you think you'll face heavy ranged combat, consider Discordia.
Unit Selection
Inviolable Resolve suggests you pick up a well-armored unit, which means 'Dawnguard.' Putting Dawnguard up to ARM19 after defensive line makes them a pain to deal with unless the other guy has thresher warjacks, snipers, or ample corrosion.
Dawnguard Invictors give you a shooting game, but suggest at least one Reach warjack to take advantage of Flank once the enemy closes. Invictors also, in a pinch, give you another potential assassination vector by shooting the enemy HQ repeatedly.
Sentinels are fairly self-explanatory: they're hitty, they kill whatever they touch in melee, and only get meaner with ARM19/21. On the flip side, higher ARM does make it harder to trigger Vengeance, but what the hell. Free movement, or more weaponmasters reaching the enemy? If you bring Sentinels, consider Manticores/Discordia for the ARM buff and for covering fire.
Destors are, at this point, a bit of an unknown. With SPD8, they can pace your warjacks. They go up to ARM19 (21 with Discordia) and give you a bit of a ranged game and an army that's happy to relocate on a moment's notice.
If you do take a costly Dawnguard contingent, consider dropping a point on a bloody Soulless escort, since you'r bringing one big, juicy, lethal target (aka brick-in-a-sock).
If Dawnguard isn't your thing, you can make Houseguard Halberdiers annoyingly tough to kill. Base ARM14 is only slightly less than Dawnguard; with Inviolable Resolve it hops to 16. Throw a Shield Wall order on top of that and you've got ARM20 infantry; Discordia pumps that to ARM22 vs ranged. Suddenly, a Defender is wondering why a friggin' elf with a shield didn't go down when it backstopped a cannon round.
Note that you're getting a little more defense (13 vs 12) and you're paying a little less (9 for full+UA vs 11). You're also losing some hitting power, going down to MAT6 and PS10. You can shore that up with CMA and the mini-feat, which is good for Gang. Under gang, your boys can pair up for MAT8 PS14 attacks (vaguely comparable to PS12 weaponmaster attacks, albeit with lower max damage); and if they pull this on a charge, you get friggin' MAT10 PS14 hits thanks to Powerful Charge.
Hmm. AJ the Ronin might've sold me on these guys, as they lose a whopping 1" to the Dawnguard; you bring the UA, walk 6" with Shield Wall, and Reform 3". Ooh, 9" vs a Dawnguard 10" run. Not bad, not bad.**
Points permitting, you could probably find use for House Shyeel battle mages, and with high ARM values firing into your troops with stormfall archers (provided you don't use the Fire round) is even an option.
Solos
Bring two arcanists, full stop end of story. You're gonna bring a couple of warjacks, and you're not always high on focus. Either hand out the focus to run, one charge, or buff hitting power. Come on, these guys are almost always useful.
I'm torn on trying to make a Dawnguard Scyir work with this army. Marshalling a warjack excludes it from the feat, Bird's Eye and Mobility. On the other hand, Vyros probably has a mob of Dawnguard for you to use Coordinated Strike with. I figure if you were set on making a Scyir work, you'd take it with a Griffin in support of Invictors.
House Shyeel Magisters can be used to make you throw that heavy warjack (or Vyros) even further. It's another 3" and a useful solo.
Mage Hunter Assassins are ALWAYS scary. Given the kind of threat ranges Vyros can give his warjacks, it probably doesn't hurt to have a psychotic chain-weapon-wielding elf running up a flank and worrying the enemy.
Ghost Snipers can be an auto-focus on feat turn by popping an enemy model.
Lanyssa Rivel's Hunter's Mark is another potential 2" on the (focus-free) charge, but requires her to hit your intended target with a Magic Ability 7 attack.
If you want to make Vyros the primary assassin, Madelyn Corbeau is 2 more points for another 2 inches, but I'm not sure I'd hinge on making Vyros the primary assassin in the force even if he IS bloody scary.
Overall
Vyros is likely to be leading (or following closely behind) a force of Dawnguard and a couple of heavy warjacks. Expect him to fire warjacks a fair distance, and while he won't make them sing and dance, he'll increase their threat range and have them avenge insults to his army.
*Iron Aggression: Upkeep spell; the jack gets to charge/slam/trample/etc. for free, and gets boosted melee attack rolls. MAN does it make jacks into wrecking balls.
**Credit to AJ the Ronin for suggesting Houseguard Halberdiers. I don't have 'em at the moment, but I can see these guys competing with Dawnguard here. The only complaint one might have is that Vyros is a Dawnguard caster and these are mere houseguard. Hey, you like Dawnguard so much, consider the Vyros tier list.
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